Jul. 8, 2018 "i'm a woman earning more than a female colleague. what should I do?": Today I found this article in the Globe and Mail.
This is a really good article, with really smart and well-written comments about if and when you should talk about your pay with your co-workers.
I remember working at Clothing Store #1 in 2005. I got hired with 2 other young women in their late teens and early 20s like me. I was getting paid $7.45/hr. Back then, the minimum wage was $7/hr.
I know there are a few other workers who were getting paid more, because they were like the team leader/ supervisor and they handled the cash register. I never handled the register when I worked there for 5 months. That's fine.
The question
As a female engineer I recently started with a company that matched my previous salary of $90,000. A co-worker with similar qualifications is doing the same work and making $60,000. She asked me what I was making; I lied and said $70,000. I had been asked by my boss not to disclose my salary because it “might make some people upset.”
I feel terrible for lying to her because I think women should be sticking up for women and helping ensure they are getting compensated fairly. But I know that if I told her my real salary it would have created waves when the company is already going through a lot of turmoil. It was not a situation where I could have comfortably deflected the question. What should I have done?
I feel terrible for lying to her because I think women should be sticking up for women and helping ensure they are getting compensated fairly. But I know that if I told her my real salary it would have created waves when the company is already going through a lot of turmoil. It was not a situation where I could have comfortably deflected the question. What should I have done?
The first answer
Bruce Sandy
Principal, Pathfinder Coaching & Consulting, Vancouver
This has created an ethical dilemma for you. Do you keep your word to your boss about not disclosing your salary level or do you support a fellow female engineer who is not being appropriately compensated for her level and quality of work? You chose to speak about your salary and to lie about it to your work colleague. Thus, you betrayed your boss’s confidence and your work colleague’s trust in you.
What you should have done is be honest from the outset. You should have told your female work colleague that you were not at liberty to discuss your compensation level.
You could have also added that her salary level sounds low and that she may want to do a salary review online through LinkedIn and other sites to compare her compensation level to that of engineers with her level of experience and education.
You could have also added that her salary level sounds low and that she may want to do a salary review online through LinkedIn and other sites to compare her compensation level to that of engineers with her level of experience and education.
You can choose to do nothing more about this now but you risk alienating both your boss and work colleague if your colleague chooses to confront your boss with the erroneous information that you have shared. I suggest that you come clean and apologize to both of them.
Say that you made an error in judgment and indicate to your boss and work colleague that you want to continue to build an open and trusting relationship with both of them and that you do not want to get caught in awkward three-way conversations about compensation inequities at the company.
Say that you made an error in judgment and indicate to your boss and work colleague that you want to continue to build an open and trusting relationship with both of them and that you do not want to get caught in awkward three-way conversations about compensation inequities at the company.
The second answer
Colleen Clarke
Corporate trainer, workplace coach, career specialist, Toronto
Sharing salary information can result in tension with colleagues, resentment toward management and a toxic workplace. Your salary is the business of you and your manager, period.
It is unprecedented to ask a co-worker their salary, even in this age of oversharing. That being said, millennials don’t seem to mind being asked or answering. Your concern for women sticking together is commendable, but this is not a relevant gender issue – you were asked not to share your salary, with anyone.
It is unprecedented to ask a co-worker their salary, even in this age of oversharing. That being said, millennials don’t seem to mind being asked or answering. Your concern for women sticking together is commendable, but this is not a relevant gender issue – you were asked not to share your salary, with anyone.
When asked a highly personal, private and uncomfortable question, be polite and cordial; it is likely an awkward moment for both of you.
But just because you have been asked a question doesn’t mean you have to answer it. Simply say, “Why do you ask?”
People usually ask this question to feel better about themselves or to compare, and often the comparison is not apples to apples. Your colleague may have other perks you don’t have, less expertise or is not a good negotiator.
But just because you have been asked a question doesn’t mean you have to answer it. Simply say, “Why do you ask?”
People usually ask this question to feel better about themselves or to compare, and often the comparison is not apples to apples. Your colleague may have other perks you don’t have, less expertise or is not a good negotiator.
Be polite and courteous but firm, which may defuse some of the awkwardness of the situation, and say, “I do not discuss salary or political preferences with colleagues. “
If you believe that everyone at your company is underpaid, you and your co-workers may want to share information in preparation for collective action; that, however, does not seem to be the case here.
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/business/careers/career-advice/article-as-a-female-professional-i-am-earning-more-than-a-female-peer-for-the/
There are 25 comments:
TioPablo
Sandy's advice is absolutely ridiculous.
Interesting article ... was surprised there was no out cry that one female was making more than another … if this where an article of a male making more than a female I am sure it would have been a different story.
I think there is an important point here and that is professionals regardless of their gender are not always paid the same ... and that is just the way it is.
I think there is an important point here and that is professionals regardless of their gender are not always paid the same ... and that is just the way it is.
No Ms Clarke sharing salary information does not create a toxic work environment.
Management choosing to pay employee doing work of equal value with equal experience wildly different remuneration is what causes toxic work environments.
Talking can help keep a workplace more equitable.
Management choosing to pay employee doing work of equal value with equal experience wildly different remuneration is what causes toxic work environments.
Talking can help keep a workplace more equitable.
For years and year my mother was told that she was the highest paid person in her job category and that she shouldn't tell anyone what she was being paid as it "might make some people upset".
It turned out they were right she was being paid a tiny bit more than other the women (about $15 a pay) but the real kicker was that they told everyone else (who was female that is) the same thing and it was being used to keep wages down, especially for women.
No wonder the company wanted it kept quiet, people were very upset when it all came out.
It turned out they were right she was being paid a tiny bit more than other the women (about $15 a pay) but the real kicker was that they told everyone else (who was female that is) the same thing and it was being used to keep wages down, especially for women.
No wonder the company wanted it kept quiet, people were very upset when it all came out.
Both "workplace coaches" came down hard on the questioner for discussing her salary with a co-worker. One even wrote: "you betrayed your boss’s confidence."
The Globe needs to hire at least one employment consultant with the welfare of employees at heart.
That's awful, just awful. Employees should be encouraged to share everything about their compensation with co-workers.
The whole bit about not not discussing your salary with co-workers is more often than not so you won't find out you're making less than they are.
It's a business scam completely designed to keep wages low. It's similar to a retail dealer at a flea market telling you not to tell their competitors how "little" they're willing to let you pay for their product.
It's funny. This whole article reads like advice I gave to a new immigrant to Canada who wanted to know how much to ask for when negotiating salary for a new job. It had nothing to do with a co-worker. It was probably about 15 years ago.
And how about some room for judgment. I certainly don't like it when a boss is sharing private conversations I have with him with his buddies around the water cooler. I've experienced that one too.
And how about some room for judgment. I certainly don't like it when a boss is sharing private conversations I have with him with his buddies around the water cooler. I've experienced that one too.
Sorry Alceste, you are 100% wrong
Employees should NOT share their compensation numbers with their co-workers
Disappointed that an employment lawyer like yourself would even make a comment like that. Clearly you've never been in any Management role
Employees should NOT share their compensation numbers with their co-workers
There are many dimensions of performance that are measured to develop individual compensation packages for professionals.
There is probably rankings involved as well. In professional organizations, rarely do two people have the same compensation package. It doesn't matter what your qualifications, gender, or race is.
There is probably rankings involved as well. In professional organizations, rarely do two people have the same compensation package. It doesn't matter what your qualifications, gender, or race is.
The one fact that stands out in this article is that one woman is earning $60,000. That is low. That is low for a new hire Engineer. That alone tells me that this woman is underperforming and maybe a candidate for termination. That is why you don't share personal info.
The only argument you make in support of employees not sharing salary information is that it might let the lower-paid one know she's a candidate for termination unless she starts performing better. And that's a problem why?
While I have been in management positions more than once, my practice (which began late in life) was on behalf of employees and unions. This 'rule' definitely isn't in their favour.
Once I represented a group of office and technical workers getting certified at the Labour Board.
They had contacted the union after someone started sharing salaries and large numbers of them realized the favouritism and unfairness going on. The employer actually resisted handing over all salary figures during negotiations for the first collective agreement, but of course they had to.
They had contacted the union after someone started sharing salaries and large numbers of them realized the favouritism and unfairness going on. The employer actually resisted handing over all salary figures during negotiations for the first collective agreement, but of course they had to.
Union wage structures are simple and easy to manage. Everyone gets paid the same whether they "earn it" or not. Simply meet minimum requirements for "promotion" and then collect a paycheque(I was a Union Local Executive in a former life)
Anyways, we can always find exceptions to the Rule, but, in large professional organizations, there is a wide range of compensation packages and they are easily defensible. I have one direct Report who earns 15% more than I do. He is a high performing Project Manager and has earned every dime over a long career at home and abroad.
As for the $60k salary mentioned in this article? There's a story in there. She deserves to know why her salary is so low (per Industry standard) and she definitely needs to know if her job is at risk and if there's anything she can do to save it
PS - I really do enjoy your Posts
Anyways, we can always find exceptions to the Rule, but, in large professional organizations, there is a wide range of compensation packages and they are easily defensible. I have one direct Report who earns 15% more than I do. He is a high performing Project Manager and has earned every dime over a long career at home and abroad.
Anyways, one size does not fit all
PS - I really do enjoy your Posts
They paid her more because that's what she asked for and she got it. If they thought she was only worth $60k, then perhaps they would've looked elsewhere to fill the position. As for the other woman, perhaps she applied for the job as well, but didn't get it. If she feels she's worth more then make your case and go and ask for a raise.
Equal pay for equal work is a mantra until one is the beneficiary and then it is just a moral dilemma that you have to live with and accept!
Or a scam and theft from someone's will. I have experienced so many scams it's not funny. The same went for others in my family.
Is this a a question of why the different pay for the same work? Or is it a question of why is the other women being paid less? I wonder if the writer would have these these concerns at all if the other engineer was a man?
Since the writer may not know what the companies plans are going forward, she should stop looking to cause issues and get on with doing her job. This should include working smarter and harder to prove that she is worth the extra money.
Since the writer may not know what the companies plans are going forward, she should stop looking to cause issues and get on with doing her job. This should include working smarter and harder to prove that she is worth the extra money.
Take the money and be happy with it. "same work" is a pretty nebulous concept.
Or you could give your colleague $10,000 a year.
Or you could give your colleague $10,000 a year.
Same qualifications, but does the lesser paid lady have the same ability and same potential ?
You should take a pay cut so that you make the same salary as your co-worker. Only then will we believe that you believe in gender equality.
My concern with Clarke's response relates to the comment about the colleague not being a good negotiator. She was hired as an engineer, not a negotiator. Employees should be paid for the work they are doing, commensurate with her education, experience and so on.
Along with negotiating skills, interview skills, inter-personal skills and many others, the variances in pay one receives go beyond your black and white assessment.
Not sharing salary information only keeps salaries low to the detriment of workers.
And fosters false and destructive competition.
When the NHL players were reluctant to speak about their salaries and bonus payments, some of the best players got played by their owners and general managers. Gordie Howe and Bobby Hull were two examples of the best players being paid less than their team mates.
When all the player's salaries were disclosed, the system allowed players with better skills and performance to be paid according to their tangible results, which made for a far better system for everyone. Same happened with most sporting leagues.
One must be wary about being told not to discuss payments etc., quite often if means they are paying less than everyone else.
One of the many variants in salaries is the result of negotiation. The one making $90K likely negotiated her pay before taking the job while the person making $60K has been reluctant to do so.
The 90K lady may be a paid more because the company sees her as potential leadership material with the possibility of bringing greater revenue to the company.
I got an airline ticket for cheaper than the person sitting next to me for the same seating and destination. Should I disclose that?
Yes.
This week's theme is about women in the workplace:
http://badcb.blogspot.com/2020/08/are-we-doing-enough-to-balance-female.html
http://badcb.blogspot.com/2020/08/how-to-cultivate-no-apologies.html
Loop is based on a simple idea:
This week's theme is about women in the workplace:
"Are we doing enough to balance female- dominated jobs?"/ "Here's a switch: A study on how men are faring in the workplace?"
http://badcb.blogspot.com/2020/08/are-we-doing-enough-to-balance-female.html
"How to cultivate a 'no apologies' leadership style"/ "France boasts diverse boards. Can Canada do the same?"
http://badcb.blogspot.com/2020/08/how-to-cultivate-no-apologies.html
My week:
Sat. Aug. 22, 2020 Taylor Swift donates $30,000 to 18-year-old woman unable to afford tuition: 'I am so inspired':
The “Cardigan” singer is known for her acts of generosity and she’s done it again, donating $30,000 to an 18-year-old with a hefty college bill.
Vitoria Mario, who lives in Britain, shared in her online fundraiser that she is “a young Black 18 year old with a dream.” She aced her exams and was accepted at a prestigious university, but she can’t afford the tuition due to her family’s financial status and is not eligible for loans.
Mario detailed her hardships, including the death of her father and living apart from her mother, who resides in Portugal, so she can study in the U.K. “In spite of this, I have always been a studious person, and after coming to the U.K. in 2016, unable to utter a word in English, I achieved” top grades, she wrote, noting she plans to study in a field that is male-dominated and in which Black women are extremely underrepresented.
Nearly three weeks after Mario created the fundraiser, Swift made the huge donation toward the $52,000 goal — which has now been met. In the comments, the singer wrote, “Vitoria, I came across your story online and am so inspired by your drive and dedication to turning your dreams into reality. I want to gift you the rest of your goal amount. Good luck with everything you do! Love, Taylor.”
https://ca.yahoo.com/news/taylor-swift-donates-30000-18-year-old-unable-afford-tuition-144739835.html
Anderson Cooper Overcome With Emotion After Coronavirus Patient's Sweet Message:
CNN’s Anderson Cooper was overcome with emotion on Friday following the broadcast of a profile of a health care worker from Miami who has been hospitalized since March after contracting the coronavirus.
Toward the end of the segment about EEG technician Rosa Felipe’s months-long battle against COVID-19 — during which she has been separated from her two sons — Felipe wished Cooper and his 4-month-old son Wyatt well.
“Could you please congratulate Anderson Cooper on his baby?” Felipe, 41, who has diabetes and asthma and, because of the effects of the coronavirus, faces the possible amputation of her hands, asked CNN correspondent Randi Kaye.
“I certainly will,” Kaye responded. “These are the things you think about when you’re laying in the hospital bed?”
“Yeah. I’m happy that he has a baby, and that he’s so cute,” replied Rosa.
The well-wishes were too much for Cooper. After the segment ended and the broadcast cut back to the studio, he welled up, removed his glasses and rubbed his eyes.
“So sweet, right?” Kaye asked.
“I mean, wow, what she has been through,” Cooper replied.
“Yeah, and what she’s still going through, Anderson, and yet, that was the only time in our whole interview that she smiled was talking about you and Wyatt,” Kaye said, adding, “When we started talking about you, that’s when she’s really lit up. I think she’s clung to that as this bright spot in all of this.”
My opinion: Awww.... to see Anderson cry. I hope Rosa Felipe does survive.
Sun. Aug. 23, 2020 Prevent food waste: My friend Leo posted this on Facebook. I shared it:
Tracy: We should all dumpster dive at grocery stores.
Gwen likes it.
' xlink:href='%23b'/%3e%3cuse fill='black' filter='url(%23c)' xlink:href='%23b'/%3e%3cpath fill='white' d='M10.473 4C8.275 4 8 5.824 8 5.824S7.726 4 5.528 4c-2.114 0-2.73 2.222-2.472 3.41C3.736 10.55 8 12.75 8 12.75s4.265-2.2 4.945-5.34c.257-1.188-.36-3.41-2.472-3.41'/%3e%3c/g%3e%3c/svg%3e){kind=small}
Loopresource.ca:
Loop is based on a simple idea:
Food should be put to its highest and best use.
We provide simple systems with safe liability structures that enable food wholesalers, retailers, and producers to divert one hundred percent of their unsaleable food away from landfill, and towards those in their community who can use it best.
For stores, it means diverting unsaleable food away from the landfill while reducing staff time and saving disposal costs.
For charities, it means access to food for their programs without overwhelming their resources.
For farmers, it means food that can be used as feed for their animals, as bio-energy, or as compost.
For all of us, we believe it's a simple, sustainable way to do the right thing for the environment while helping strengthen our communities.
https://loopresource.ca/
Fri. Aug. 28, 2020 Tyra Banks show: This reminds me of an ep I saw probably in 2006. 4 women gave their tips on how they saved money. One of them does dumpster diving outside a department store and she finds furniture.
Freegan: This reminds me of an article in the Edmonton Journal from years ago. This guy goes dumpster diving outside drugstores and they throw out big bags of chips that expired or about to. There are things like dish washing soap.
Mon. Aug. 24, 2020 Chrissy Teigen Is Buying Teachers' Entire School Supply Wish Lists:
Fri. Aug. 28, 2020 Tyra Banks show: This reminds me of an ep I saw probably in 2006. 4 women gave their tips on how they saved money. One of them does dumpster diving outside a department store and she finds furniture.
Freegan: This reminds me of an article in the Edmonton Journal from years ago. This guy goes dumpster diving outside drugstores and they throw out big bags of chips that expired or about to. There are things like dish washing soap.
Mon. Aug. 24, 2020 Chrissy Teigen Is Buying Teachers' Entire School Supply Wish Lists:
- On Twitter, Chrissy Teigen asked teachers to send her their Amazon wish lists, so she could buy them school supplies.
- "Today I cleared 50 entire lists and countless extra items were purchased from lovely people just passing through. Will do more this week and would love to focus on struggling districts and special needs," she tweeted.
- Teigen's followers also bought school supplies for the teachers who shared their wish lists.
Before I even get into this story, let's just state the very obvious: No teacher should be forced to compile an Amazon wish list in order to obtain supplies for their students, the result of a chronically underfunded public school system. Still, that's the reality at present—and on Sunday, Chrissy Teigen called on teachers to send her their wish lists so she could buy the lot. "If you are a teacher in need of supplies for the upcoming school year, please drop your amazon wishlist here, I will do as many as I can!" she tweeted.
